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I just can't share in the Trumphobia. He has no possibility of getting my vote; neither does Clinton. Hell, I don't even believe that Trump is a real candidate. I think that he is a stalking horse for Clinton --that the whole thing is a set-up to get Hillary elected. So, I doubt that anything he says is a reliable indicator of what he might do if he manages to get elected.
Now, something that is worth worrying about imv is the reaction of Trump supporters to a close, controversial loss.
Good luck to you and yours. I think I'm done with this thread since I've said everything I wanted and learned nothing new.
Now that was a good article, puts an interesting light on the public perception. Thanks for posting it, makes me ask myself how much of my own negativity is as much the constant reenforcement of the meme.
Shades of "seepage"
Unfortunately now we have the latest WikiLeaks thing about Clinton making money off his foundation. Although near as I've been able to tell, it's about Bill picking up lucrative speaking engagements - not anything ugly like syphoning off money from the foundation - so again it seems over-played. But, there it is, play it Trump certainly is.
Precisely, Victor, I did point put the only really serious accusation in his gish gallop list was on a matter of national security - and no government plays that with an "open book" policy
but that sort of logic simply bounces off CT'ers
the exchange also play to a phenomena you see quite a lot with CT'ers - and it is one of "unrealistic expectations"
This is evident in climate change deniers, according to most - because we do not know everything about our climate - we know nothing
they won't be convinced until someone puts a fully working miniature planet in a test lab in the same way twoofers will only be convinced that a plane + office fires + gravity brought down WTC 1/2 if it can be repeated in an experiment
both unrealistic expectations
It's a shame you've checked out of this discussion. Would be interested in why I've offended you with my contempt for Mr. Nader and the dunderheads that gave him their vote and what his egomania wound up doing to our world as we know it.
Would using "thoughtless" rather than "uppity" have made it any better?
Here are a couple articles that will help explain why I feel as I do.
I also have a hard time understanding why anybody would ignore the good reasons given in endorsement articles like these for Hillary Clinton - esp. as they are from outlets which either only rarely published an endorsment at all or if they did in the past, basically never for the Democratic candidate. Are they all in on a conspiracy to get her elected?!?
The Atlantic - Against Donald Trump
USA Today breaks with tradition, rejects Trump
AzCentral - Endorsement: Hillary Clinton is the only choice to move America ahead
The San Diego Union-Tribune - Why Hillary Clinton is the safe choice for president
Not voting or voting for a 3rd party candidate comes with the risk of a Trump presidency (and this is not just a risk for the United States but for the whole world as far as I'm concerned). Compared to Trump, Hillary Clinton is by far the safer choice as she - to name just one thing - is willing to surround herself with experts and is willing to listen to them (compared to DT who seems to have a bad case of Dunning-Kruger with "thinking" that he's the expert on everything and doesn't need let alone take advice from anybody).
I have heard it argued that the US election system / constitution / political institutions worked quite well 150 years ago, but is/are simply not fit for purpose in the 21st century
specifically that it was designed around a concept of cooperation - especially between the executive and the legislature
it seems that instead of cooperation the US has suffered from increasing polarisation in government in recent years
Interesting observation. Consider what made America so great.
America was the Land of Opportunity.
Vast stretches of what "we" took to be virgin land, filled with wildlife beyond description - vast plains, forests, mountains and water ways and shorelines, mineral riches and black gold beyond comprehension waiting for people who assumed they had a god given right to take it. And always the welcome cheap immigrants to do the hard work, until some figured out how to make it big, while the others kept toiling.
What Trump supporters ignore is that something unnoticed but big changed after WWII, though by the 1970s we learned (and those who paid any attention understood) that our consumption and population growth was overextending our planet's ability to support it.
Now in 2016 we are reaching the end of our rainbow - the things that used to drive the economy were all resources consumption oriented - new bonanzas, boom and bust, until another opportunity resource, new wide empty lands awaiting exploration and exploitation just beyond the next horizon.
Now the electorate and many politicians acts as though jobs are created by fiat, it's never worked that way. Jobs are a reflection of resources availability as much as it is about consumption.
Society has fully engulfed and saturated our planet, without appreciating that basic reality today's world doesn't make sense.
Unfortunately libertarians and tea party folks and right-wingers in general expect the opportunities of that past plentiful world. It's utterly deluded. I know I shouldn't get so vehement about it, and I appreciate that many leftie are plenty deluded themselves. But nothing the Democrats have comes close to the Faith-based God-fearing Republicans, with their utter rejection of serious science in favor of farce driven with ruthless tactics. Backed by their conviction that their own self-interest is all that supposed to matter in the world.
In essence, it doesn't matter which wins. America is pretty well screwed at this point and getting "screwed-er", no matter the winner. The winner will only determine the details of the screwing.
Then the USA really needs to get its act together and fight the spiral of corruption and inequality.
http://variable-variability.blogspot.de/2016/11/greens-progressives-clinton-trump.html
I found it interesting reading. Since I've been buried in work (a bastard hip roof - really what it's called. For good reason - but it turned out pretty good once the sweat and bit of blood was all said and done. and other less exciting stuff in-between) . I really wanted to write a bunch this election cycle but life once again had other plans, been frustrating. You did touch on many points that concern me so I decided it was perfect to fill in for my missing stuff.
http://whatsupwiththatwatts.blogspot.com/2016/11/greens-progressives-think-before-voting.html
How you like my treatment, any suggestions or critiques, requests are welcome.
That together with the lack of compulsory voting, doesn't strike me as being in the spirit of democracy. More third-world-ish.
On the other hand, early voting is good, although I wonder if there is an option for postal votes. (If not, why not?)
What would you call the US system of government - a flawed democracy, a capitocracy, a corporatocracy, at times a criminocracy?
As I understand it, not all states flout the law in that regard. Quite appalling the ones that do.
(I'm not saying our Australian system is perfect, and I will say our elected leaders are very imperfect. Prime Minister Turnbull is a huge disappointment. So was Kevin Rudd in many respects though he did some things very well (such as preventing a recession during the global financial crisis, with the help of Wayne Swan). The current Labor leader, Bill Shorten has his faults too, but is exceeding my expectations at the same time. And there is cronyism throughout our system - in both major parties.)
Why?
Because just like the vote recently seen in England, the polls said we will not leave so i will do a protest vote.
Result the country is going to go down the tube and the people who caused this left the ship as soon as possible.
In the USA i fear there is going to be a similar voting pattern a protest vote will get this dumb ass Thump elected.
Welcome to the worst idiot ever as leader of the western world people.
I honestly do not feel very confident in the direction that western democracy is heading.
There is a total disconnect between the direction of policy and what is needed how does this happen?
Answer.
Please put a person who has some science knowledge as your Representative.
But the candidates...no, thanks. I won't be party to putting any of their behinds in office.
http://www.theage.com.au/world/us-election/forget-clinton-and-trump--americas-democracy-is-broken-and-they-cant-fix-it-20161103-gshl3c.html
I shall watch all of this unfold from my self-sufficient home in the mountains...well, until there's no more TV.
The young people in America are at least as progressive as Europe; they no longer watch television. Not passively watching one -sided manipulative emotional pictures, but reading about numbers and being able to look up information does wonders for your ability to think straight. (Disclosure: I ditched TV as soon as I left my parental home, best decision ever.) People blame social media for the inability of people to talk with each other, but the problematic people are mainly the old people watch propaganda at Fox "News".
it seems that both countries who bought into the neoliberal economic claptrap, that emerged in the 80's and became THE dominant social and economic mantra are basket cases - with the same deep structural flaws
low wages, poor infrastructure investment, emasculation of the politicians - who are subservient to "the market" and hence big business, an endemic culture of mendacious tax avoidance etc etc
and as pointed out upthread - the mask soon slips with these lunatics and it shows a distinctly authoritarian and anti democratic face
Now we have a country where facts have become what you want them to be.
It occurs to me there are a huge amount of people these days in the USA who are, have been, home-schooled by religiously possessed parents - starting in the 80s. Who wanted to created a bubble world isolated from outside influences.
Past couple weeks I've spent many days on a construction site. Playing carpenter as part of a crew, it's been another fascinating experience, even up to Russ Limbaugh blaring outta one of the trucks during lunch. Then today, oh lordie the afternoon full of christian radio music. The nonstop insipid obsequious unctuous adulation for the Lord God On High, man if there were really a conscious God up there watching, I bet my paycheck that stuff would make her puke. She likes those of us who engage this life she has bestowed on us for our short moment.
If you want to understand the Trump phenomena, which I fear is not over by a long shot, hell, we don't even know for sure - the kook actually could become President, the level of disconnect and paranoia and anger is so deep.
The past few weeks I've been facing the reality that 'rationalists' people who appreciate this planet and her ways, people who understand and love science for what it can help teach us about the world around us. We are in the minority. I've always wanted to believe that deep down people really cared and wanted to learn about this life and planet around us. But it ain't so.
Back to tomorrow's US election, and the days after,
Hang on, going to be a rocky ride, all the Republican, Trump and Democratic powers that be will be at each others throats and continue ignoring the really important stuff happening. Meaning that Earths run away experiment continues full speed ahead. While the politicians dither - and the masses ignore - and the scientists politely continue refining their Journal of Earth's Vitals as the heat continues rising and cascading consequences become ever more impressive.
I'm old, got my little hide away while the water and economy lasts, I'm thinking in terms of years for me. But I think what if I were younger and still full of piss'n vinegar, ready to face a good storm and determined to be around for a few decades?
We're getting close to crunch times, younger people that intend to make it through what will obvious be a few different waves of population reduction horrors, (location, pace, breath will vary but the tempo will be in one direction).
What to do? Who are the people you want to surround yourselves with? Who are the one's you want to avoid? Where are viable places to step off-sides from the Globalized Grid and make a stand? Stuff to consider. Learn about fundamental stuff. Short wave radio would be good to learn about, satellite based communication certainly has its vulnerabilities.
Regarding today's politics, fundamentally a healthy political system requires masses of people buying into a mutual understanding, a Social Contract. In America that has been undermined by a deliberate effort that is not altogether unrelated to Climate Science Denial Campaign, in that the same ultimate power players have helped fund both. Plus they use the same tactics of vicious overwhelming denunciation, doubt mongering, resentment fabricating, slander, ridicule and so on.
So we have absolutists Christians who have convinced themselves nothing from outside their bubble can be trusted, it is all satan's doing, etc. They don't want to listen, or hear, or think, or learn. They fear others and believe in their guns and the inevitable need to use them against all who threaten what they believe.
Peter.
US Citizen, Colorado
Seems to me Paul McGeough pretty well describes the situation. Thanks for sharing the link. That was definitely worth reading.