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      <title>Politics and Society — HotWhopper Chat</title>
      <link>http://www.hotwhopper.com/chat/</link>
      <pubDate>Wed, 19 Aug 2026 11:45:10 +0000</pubDate>
          <description>Politics and Society — HotWhopper Chat</description>
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        <title>Why was Karl targeted by Bates - Karl et al. 2015 wasn't producing a CDR?</title>
        <link>http://www.hotwhopper.com/chat/discussion/257/why-was-karl-targeted-by-bates-karl-et-al-2015-wasnt-producing-a-cdr</link>
        <pubDate>Fri, 24 Mar 2017 18:32:39 +0000</pubDate>
        <category>Politics and Society</category>
        <dc:creator>citizenschallenge</dc:creator>
        <guid isPermaLink="false">257@/chat/discussions</guid>
        <description><![CDATA[<br />I've just read Bates 2016 - One of the things that has me most confused, and that this reading has reinforced - is why Karl 2016 became a target in the first place? Aren't Bates CDRs major data sets that others turn to for grabbing and using numbers? - climate data record list<br /><a rel="nofollow" href="http://journals.ametsoc.org/na101/home/literatum/publisher/ams/journals/content/bams/2016/15200477-97.9/bams-d-15-00015.1/20161012/images/large/bams-d-15-00015.1-t1.jpeg" title="Link: http://journals.ametsoc.org/na101/home/literatum/publisher/ams/journals/content/bams/2016/15200477-97.9/bams-d-15-00015.1/20161012/images/large/bams-d-15-00015.1-t1.jpeg">http://journals.ametsoc.org/na101/home/literatum/publisher/ams/journals/content/bams/2016/15200477-97.9/bams-d-15-00015.1/20161012/images/large/bams-d-15-00015.1-t1.jpeg</a><br /><br /><br />When I look at Karl et al 2015, it's a "long-term global temperature analysis" It is a study and not a reference work. <br />(As in the class of Bates' list of CDRs.)<br /><br />Wasn't Karl using others CDRs that were already in the&nbsp;<i>verification/maturation/certification process</i>&nbsp;?<br /><br />What was it that Karl didn't do to Bates' satisfaction?<br />]]>
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        <title>Fyfe et al. 2016 elevator pitch to the co-authors.</title>
        <link>http://www.hotwhopper.com/chat/discussion/251/fyfe-et-al-2016-elevator-pitch-to-the-co-authors</link>
        <pubDate>Wed, 22 Mar 2017 00:01:18 +0000</pubDate>
        <category>Politics and Society</category>
        <dc:creator>citizenschallenge</dc:creator>
        <guid isPermaLink="false">251@/chat/discussions</guid>
        <description><![CDATA[Okay, so my attempt to critique Fyfe 2016, was too long for any of the big boys. &nbsp;Since I believe I do have something worth presenting to these experts, I've worked on coming up much a shorter crisper version. &nbsp;(Victor, I sure hope you didn't misread our last exchange I certainly appreciated your comments. &nbsp;I'm curious to know what you think of this version, should you take the time to look at it.)<br /><br /><h2>March 21, 2017</h2><div><div><div><a rel="nofollow"></a><h3>Elevator pitch to co-authors of Fyfe et al. 2016 - need for clarification&nbsp;</h3><div><div></div></div><div><div><i>Dear Fyfe 2016 Co-Authors,</i></div><div><i><br /></i></div><div><i>All of you by virtue of being experts of the highest caliber possess a nuanced understanding light-years beyond ordinary citizens, politicians and business leaders.&nbsp; Belonging within that rarified world you risk being out of touch with how non-scientists, particularly those with hostile agendas, read your papers.&nbsp; To us Fyfe et al. 2016 offered up a muddled Rorschach test rather than the promised clarifications.</i></div><div><i><br /></i></div><div><i>Please give this summary&nbsp;<a rel="nofollow" href="http://whatsupwiththatwatts.blogspot.com/2017/03/fyfe2016-stampcollecting-vs-informing.html">of my previous effort</a>&nbsp;a moment to see if something resonates, or not.&nbsp; I don’t need a response, all I'm hoping is for you to take it seriously, if only for a moment.</i></div><div>____________________________________________________________________________</div><blockquote>¶10&nbsp; Understanding of the recent slowdown also built upon prior research into the causes of the so-called big&nbsp;hiatus&nbsp;from the 1950s to the 1970s. During this period, increased cooling from anthropogenic sulfate aerosols roughly offset the&nbsp;warming&nbsp;from increasing GHGs (which were markedly lower than today).&nbsp; This offsetting contributed to an approximately constant&nbsp;global mean surface temperature&nbsp;(GMST). Ice-core sulfate data from Greenland support this interpretation of GMST behaviour in the 1950s to 1970s, and provide compelling evidence of large temporal increases in atmospheric loadings of anthropogenic sulfate aerosols. The IPO was another contributory factor to the big&nbsp;hiatus.&nbsp;</blockquote><div>________________________________</div><div><br /></div><div>Clarify the process so people can 'appreciate' what you're talking about.</div><div><br /></div><div>Sulfate aerosols reflected the sun’s energy back into space&nbsp;</div><div>before it had the opportunity to be converted into the infrared energy&nbsp;<br />that fuels our climate system.&nbsp;&nbsp;<br /><br />Thus a cooling trend in the GMST and the global system.</div><div>____________________________________________________________________________</div><blockquote>¶11&nbsp; Research motivated by the warming slowdown has also led to a fuller understanding of ocean heat uptake.&nbsp;… In summary, research into the causes of the slowdown has been enabled by a large body of prior research, and represents an important and continuing scientific effort to quantify the climate signals associated with internal decadal variability, natural external forcing and anthropogenic factors.</blockquote><div>________________________________</div><div><br /></div><div>Clarify the process …</div><div><br /></div><div>The heat was moved into the oceans where ~90% of our climate system’s heat resides, thus it was absorbed into the global climate system - even if not registering in the GMST estimate.</div><div><br /></div><div>Help people viscerally visualize the dynamics. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</div><div>____________________________________________________________________________</div><blockquote>Claims and Counterclaims&nbsp;<br /><a rel="nofollow"></a></blockquote><blockquote>¶13&nbsp; Recent claims by Lewandowsky et al. that scientists “turned a routine fluctuation into a problem for science” and that “there is no evidence that identifies the recent period as&nbsp;<b>unique or particularly unusual”</b><b>26</b>were made in the context of an examination of whether warming has ceased, stopped or paused. …</blockquote><div>________________________________</div><div><br /></div><div>What’s the point in picking this bone with the Lewandowsky paper? &nbsp;</div><div><br /></div><div>Worst&nbsp;your&nbsp;paper doesn’t acknowledge,&nbsp;<b>the massive disinformation campaign surrounding the recent faux hiatus and&nbsp;<u>how the faux hiatus has been artificially hyper-inflated with a significance it does not warrant</u>. &nbsp;</b></div><div>____________________________________________________________________________</div><blockquote>¶15&nbsp; … Just exactly how such changes should be referred to is open to debate. Possible choices …</blockquote><div>____________________________________________________</div><div><b></b><br /></div><div>Why not demand your opponents truthfully reflect what scientists are explaining?&nbsp;</div><div><br /></div><div>Why not a bit of moral indignation at the general acceptability of having your information constantly misrepresented and lied about?&nbsp;</div><div>_______________________________________________________________________________</div><blockquote><b>¶18&nbsp; &nbsp; "Superimposed on this forced anthropogenic response are small signals of solar irradiance changes, cooling and recovery from volcanic eruptions and internal variability.”</b></blockquote><div>________________________________________________________<br /><br /></div><div>A standout sentence.&nbsp; Build on to it.&nbsp; Internal variability, that is various vectors of heat transport. &nbsp;</div><div><br /></div><div>Come up with some illustrative paragraphs that convey the notion of our dynamic global heat/moisture distribution engine,&nbsp;rather than showing up with a list.</div><div>_________________________________________________________________________</div><blockquote>¶21&nbsp; The big hiatus and warming slowdown periods correspond to times during which the dominant mode of decadal variability in the Pacific—the IPO—was in its negative phase. …</blockquote><div>__________________________________</div><div><br /></div><div>No helpful narrative, instead you repeat and reinforce the “hiatus” dog-whistle 13 times and never draw a clean qualitative distinction between the “big hiatus” (reflection of sun’s rays) and the “faux hiatus” (heat moving away from the surface).</div><div><br /></div><div><b>Besides, even more important -&nbsp;<i>Why not point out that no one knows precisely how these numbers relate to future impacts anyways</i>,&nbsp;</b><b>so why are leaders and the public sweating such trivial deviations?</b></div><div><br /></div><div><b>Bring the discuss back to the important issues, the well understood fundamentals dynamics that are in motion.</b></div><div>____________________________________________________________________________</div><blockquote><br /></blockquote></div></div></div></div>]]>
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        <title>NOAA_ERSST_V4 data products - global coverage ?</title>
        <link>http://www.hotwhopper.com/chat/discussion/233/noaa-ersst-v4-data-products-global-coverage</link>
        <pubDate>Sat, 18 Feb 2017 19:56:12 +0000</pubDate>
        <category>Politics and Society</category>
        <dc:creator>citizenschallenge</dc:creator>
        <guid isPermaLink="false">233@/chat/discussions</guid>
        <description><![CDATA[Can anyone tell me what area of the globe this data set covers.<br />What's excluded.<br /><br />I was looking at their site but not seeing it, untrained eyes and all.<br />Any informative links with intros, descriptions would also be welcomed.]]>
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        <title>Fyfe et al. 2016: stamp collecting vs informing and clarifying. Examining a failure to communicate</title>
        <link>http://www.hotwhopper.com/chat/discussion/243/fyfe-et-al-2016-stamp-collecting-vs-informing-and-clarifying-examining-a-failure-to-communicate</link>
        <pubDate>Wed, 08 Mar 2017 04:34:22 +0000</pubDate>
        <category>Politics and Society</category>
        <dc:creator>citizenschallenge</dc:creator>
        <guid isPermaLink="false">243@/chat/discussions</guid>
        <description><![CDATA[Well, if I wanted to become friends with climate scientists guess I've killed my chances. &nbsp;Still it is something that needs saying. &nbsp;Even if no one want to hear it, so of course, no one will hear it. &nbsp;Not that it would make any difference, as the kabuki theater continues&nbsp;<br /><br />It all gets so depressing from every direction inane stuff and general apathy and hopelessness and thin skins. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;And to think half century ago we were filled with such conceit, look at our future now, . . . . .<br />_______________________________________<br /><br /><div>... and a question of perspective.</div><div>Alternately, Behold&nbsp;<a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.shapingtomorrowsworld.org/lewandowskyseepage.html">Seepage</a>&nbsp;in Action. &nbsp; <i>(This really is a sincerely&nbsp;constructive effort)</i></div><div><br /></div><div>In working on my&nbsp;<a rel="nofollow" href="http://whatsupwiththatwatts.blogspot.com/2017/02/4usrep-smith-karl15-noaa-dissection.html" title="Link: http://whatsupwiththatwatts.blogspot.com/2017/02/4usrep-smith-karl15-noaa-dissection.html">review of Lamar Smith’s press release</a>&nbsp;I distractedly glanced at&nbsp;<i>Fyfe et al. 2016</i>&nbsp;a couple times.&nbsp; Then since John Bates’ singled it out in his ClimateEtc&nbsp;<a rel="nofollow" href="http://blog.hotwhopper.com/2017/02/david-rose-doubles-down-on-climate.html#references">attack piece</a>&nbsp;I took the time to read it carefully.&nbsp; It was written by some of the foremost experts in the field, I’ve listened to their talks on YouTube, I’ve exchanged emails with some.&nbsp; A couple have endured malicious and vicious attacks based on pure fabricated deception, yet they continue doing world class science.&nbsp; These are the real deal, heck some are among my heroes.&nbsp; I don't presume to second-guess such experts about their science. &nbsp;</div><div><br /></div><div>Yet, I was stunned reading their treatment of the so-called “global warming hiatus” - it’s not their facts I question, but their presentation.&nbsp; Can’t help it, I take climate science communication very seriously and their wording hit me like an atrocity, knocked me right off my pins.&nbsp; I've felt compelled to explain my reaction ever since, if only to myself. &nbsp;I've been spending days wrestling with this and I admit I hope some of the authors and a few others will give me a chance to make my case - I've striven to keep my comments as concise as possible. &nbsp;Give it a skim. &nbsp;You decide if I succeed.<br /><br /></div><div><i></i><br /></div><div><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.nature.com/climate/index.html">NATURE</a>&nbsp;opinion &amp; comment</div><div>Making sense of the early-2000s warming slowdown</div><div><br /></div><div><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.meteo.psu.edu/holocene/public_html/Mann/articles/articles/FyfeEtAlNatureClimate16.pdf" title="Link: http://www.meteo.psu.edu/holocene/public_html/Mann/articles/articles/FyfeEtAlNatureClimate16.pdf">http://www.meteo.psu.edu/holocene/public_html/Mann/articles/articles/FyfeEtAlNatureClimate16.pdf</a></div><div>Nature Climate Change | Vol 6 | March 2016 | Pages 224 to 228</div><div><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.nature.com/natureclimatechange" title="Link: http://www.nature.com/natureclimatechange">www.nature.com/natureclimatechange</a>&nbsp;© 2016 Macmillan Publishers Limited. All rights reserved</div><div><br /></div><div><div><b><i>I am reprinting the full text of this paper by right of the&nbsp;</i><a rel="nofollow" href="http://fairuse.stanford.edu/overview/fair-use/what-is-fair-use/"><i>Fair Use doctrine</i></a><i>&nbsp;-&nbsp;</i></b></div><div><i><b>for the purpose of doing the following detailed critique.</b></i></div><div>___________________________________________________________________</div></div><div><div>co-authors</div></div><div>John C. Fyfe, Gerald A. Meehl, Matthew H. England, Michael E. Mann, Benjamin D. Santer, Gregory M. Flato, Ed Hawkins, Nathan P. Gillett, Shang-Ping Xie, Yu Kosaka and Neil C. Swart</div><div><i>____________________________________________________________</i></div><blockquote><div>The introduction:<br /><i>It has been claimed that the early-2000s&nbsp;</i><i>global warming (b)</i><i>&nbsp;slowdown or&nbsp;</i><i>hiatus (a)(e)</i><i>, characterized by a reduced rate of&nbsp;</i><i>global surface warming (c)</i><i>, has been overstated, lacks sound scientific basis, or is unsupported by observations. The evidence presented here contradicts these claims</i><i>&nbsp;(d)</i><i>.</i></div></blockquote><div>_______________________________________________________</div><div><br /></div><div>Why the labyrinthian phrasing?&nbsp; Simplify wording. Clarify meaning. &nbsp;</div><div><br /></div><div>(a)&nbsp; Creates a false equivalence between “slowdown” and “hiatus” - hiatus means STOPPED! &nbsp;But, Global&nbsp;Warming never stopped!</div><div><br /></div><div>(b)&nbsp; Creates a false equivalence between “global warming” and “global mean surface warming.” &nbsp;</div><div><br /></div><div>(c) &nbsp; Furthermore: “early-2000s global warming slowdown or hiatus, characterized by a reduced rate of global surface warming” -&nbsp; implies “surface” warming slowdown (or faux hiatus) is a symptom of a “global” warming slowdown.</div><div><br /></div><div>(d)&nbsp; “Evidence presented here contradicts these claims.”&nbsp; Given the&nbsp;paragraph's convoluted wording one could easily conclude this is saying:&nbsp;<i>the “hiatus” (that is global warming stopping) is not contradicted</i></div><div><br /></div><div>… which is exactly what the contrarian PR machine was hoping they could twist any science into. &nbsp;<i>Why make it so easy?</i></div><div><br /></div><div>(e)&nbsp; Why even use the politically charged term “hiatus” beyond a footnote?&nbsp; What possible purpose does it serve other than to fatally wound clarity and invite gross misinterpretation?</div><div><br /></div><div><b>This paper seems a textbook example of “<a rel="nofollow" href="http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0956797612457686">seepage</a>” in action. &nbsp;</b>Or as I would phrase it,&nbsp;<b>unconsciously adapting the contrarian’s script</b>. &nbsp;Please keep this in mind as you continue.</div><div><br /></div><div>Continued at&nbsp;<a rel="nofollow" href="http://whatsupwiththatwatts.blogspot.com/2017/03/fyfe2016-stampcollecting-vs-informing.html" title="Link: http://whatsupwiththatwatts.blogspot.com/2017/03/fyfe2016-stampcollecting-vs-informing.html">http://whatsupwiththatwatts.blogspot.com/2017/03/fyfe2016-stampcollecting-vs-informing.html</a></div>]]>
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        <title>What do we really mean by "climate response" to GHG forcing?</title>
        <link>http://www.hotwhopper.com/chat/discussion/237/what-do-we-really-mean-by-climate-response-to-ghg-forcing</link>
        <pubDate>Wed, 01 Mar 2017 17:27:10 +0000</pubDate>
        <category>Politics and Society</category>
        <dc:creator>citizenschallenge</dc:creator>
        <guid isPermaLink="false">237@/chat/discussions</guid>
        <description><![CDATA[<p>I've literally been struggling with trying to enunciate some things, if just for my own intellectual expectations and journey through life. &nbsp;I keep thinking I'm getting somewhere and bam, back at the bottom of the hill. &nbsp;Now I've put off my Bates dissection because I need to reconcile myself with Fyfe 2016. &nbsp;It's a trip, among its authors are heroes of mine, people who's lectures and articles have taught me, some who have been kind enough to respond to occasional emails. &nbsp;Literally among the best and brightest. &nbsp;It's ludicrous to think I could question or argue with their science (I'm capable of arguing with rhetorical games, but not facts as digested by real scientists. &nbsp;I know that.). &nbsp;Still that paper/comment has me in dither. &nbsp;I'm beginning to understand my gripe which is summed up in my working title: &nbsp;"<b></b>Fyfe et al. 2016 - Examining a failure to communicate - a question of perspective" but still wrestling with it. &nbsp;On a related note, this morning I was reading ATTP's&nbsp;<a rel="nofollow" href="https://andthentheresphysics.wordpress.com/2017/02/28/catastrophe-hoax-or-just-lukewarm/" title="Link: https://andthentheresphysics.wordpress.com/2017/02/28/catastrophe-hoax-or-just-lukewarm/">Catastrophe, hoax, or just “Lukewarm”?</a>&nbsp;and a couple questions crystalized that I'm hoping someone might be into sharing any thoughts,</p><blockquote>Can someone help clarify something for me –<br />People/politicians/scientists spend all this time talking about climate response, when it seems to me, they are actually talking about temperature response.<br /><br />As though that number tells us everything.&nbsp;<br /><br />What does that figure actually tell us about our Earth’s biosphere’s response,<br />or societal response?<br /><br />What about other critically important parts of this equation?<br /><br />What about extreme weather response to temperature?<br /><br />How about societal responses (or lack thereof) to weather driven infrastructure destruction?<br /><br /><i>Seems to me in our collective obsession over achieving ultimate accuracy we’ve lost sight of what those number really for and are giving short&nbsp;shrift to the more critical matter of cascading consequences.</i></blockquote><div>I understand the scientist's obsession with process and accurate is a requirement - but something critical needs to be acknowledged (explained) when communicating that science to nonscientists. &nbsp;I don't pretend to know solutions, but I sure as hell know that scientific communication with challenged lay people, has failed to confront deliberate frauds. &nbsp;That failure has and will continue to have increasingly grave consequences.</div>]]>
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        <title>Australian and UK deniers using same playbook again</title>
        <link>http://www.hotwhopper.com/chat/discussion/235/australian-and-uk-deniers-using-same-playbook-again</link>
        <pubDate>Mon, 27 Feb 2017 01:04:46 +0000</pubDate>
        <category>Politics and Society</category>
        <dc:creator>Contrail Chook</dc:creator>
        <guid isPermaLink="false">235@/chat/discussions</guid>
        <description><![CDATA[So as anyone who has been paying attention to Australian politics knows, the LNP government has been making a big noise about the supposed unreliability of renewables and the new for baseload from coal plants. This is despite a range of industry groups and scientists and study groups and whoever else repeatedly pointing out that the LNP's case is a load of bollocks.<br /><br />The UK House of Lords has just released a report which takes the same line as the Australian LNP government, and is being similarly trashed by various respondents.<br /><br />See <a href="https://www.carbonbrief.org/house-of-lords-energy-report-slammed-confused-misleading" rel="nofollow">https://www.carbonbrief.org/house-of-lords-energy-report-slammed-confused-misleading</a><br /><br />So quite obviously the UK and Oz deniers have been swapping notes. "Coal is needed for baseload" seems to be their meme du jour.<br />]]>
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        <title>Climate scientists versus climate data - what's the deal with John Bates</title>
        <link>http://www.hotwhopper.com/chat/discussion/225/climate-scientists-versus-climate-data-whats-the-deal-with-john-bates</link>
        <pubDate>Sun, 12 Feb 2017 18:45:46 +0000</pubDate>
        <category>Politics and Society</category>
        <dc:creator>citizenschallenge</dc:creator>
        <guid isPermaLink="false">225@/chat/discussions</guid>
        <description><![CDATA[<br /><blockquote><div><b>Climate scientists versus climate&nbsp;data<br /></b>Posted on <a rel="nofollow" href="https://judithcurry.com/2017/02/04/climate-scientists-versus-climate-data/">February 4, 2017</a><br />by John Bates<br />A look behind the curtain at NOAA’s climate data center.<br /><a rel="nofollow" href="https://judithcurry.com/2017/02/04/climate-scientists-versus-climate-data/" title="Link: https://judithcurry.com/2017/02/04/climate-scientists-versus-climate-data/">https://judithcurry.com/2017/02/04/climate-scientists-versus-climate-data/</a></div></blockquote>




<blockquote><div><br /><br /><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/02/how-culture-clash-noaa-led-flap-over-high-profile-warming-pause-study" title="Link: http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/02/how-culture-clash-noaa-led-flap-over-high-profile-warming-pause-study">http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/02/how-culture-clash-noaa-led-flap-over-high-profile-warming-pause-study</a></p>
<p>How a culture clash at NOAA led to a flap over a high-profile warming pause study</p>
<p><b>By </b><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.sciencemag.org/author/warren-cornwall"><b>Warren Cornwall</b></a><b>, </b><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.sciencemag.org/author/paul-voosen"><b>Paul Voosen</b></a>Feb. 8, 2017 , 1:00 PM</p>
<p>A former scientist at the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) in Washington, D.C., made waves this past weekend when he alleged that climate scientist Thomas Karl, the former head of a major NOAA technical center, “failed to disclose critical information” to the agency, journal editors, and Congress about the data used in a controversial study published in <i>Science</i> in June 2015. Karl was the lead author of that paper, which concluded that global surface temperatures continued rising in recent years, contrary to earlier suggestions that there had been a “pause” in global warming.</p>
<p>John Bates, who retired from NOAA this past November, made the claims in <a rel="nofollow" href="https://judithcurry.com/2017/02/04/climate-scientists-versus-climate-data/"><b>a post</b></a> on the prominent blog of Judith Curry, a climate researcher who <a rel="nofollow" href="https://judithcurry.com/2017/01/03/jc-in-transition/"><b>recently retired</b></a> from the Georgia Institute of Technology in Atlanta and has walked the line between science and climate contrarians over the past decade. Bates’s complaints were also the centerpiece of <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-4192182/World-leaders-duped-manipulated-global-warming-data.html"><b>a story</b></a> published Sunday by David Rose of the United Kingdom’s <i>The Mail on Sunday</i>, a tabloid, which claimed that national leaders “were strongly influenced” by the “flawed NOAA study” as they finalized the 2015 Paris climate agreement.</p>
<p>…..</p>
<p>In the blog post, Bates says that his complaints provide evidence that Karl had his “thumb on the scale” in an effort to discredit claims of a warming pause, and his team rushed to publish the paper so it could influence national and international climate talks. But Bates does not directly challenge the conclusions of Karl's study, and he never formally raised his concerns through internal NOAA mechanisms.</p>
<p>Tuesday, in <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.eenews.net/stories/1060049630"><b>an interview with E&amp;E News</b></a>, Bates himself downplayed any suggestion of misconduct. <b>“The issue here is not an issue of tampering with data, but rather really of timing of a release of a paper that had not properly disclosed everything it was,”</b> he told reporter Scott Waldman. And Bates told <i>Science </i>Insider that he is wary of his critique becoming a talking point for those skeptical of human-caused climate change. But it was important for this conversation about data integrity to happen, he says. <b>“That’s where I came down after a lot of soul searching. I knew people would misuse this. But you can't control other people,”</b> Bates says.</p></div></blockquote><div><p><i>This guy goes straight to an unhinged from reality and climate science denial blog like Climate.etc to make his charges directly to heart of the most rabid of science contrarian tribes, then has the brass-balls to play all innocent and come up with:&nbsp;<b>“That’s where I came down after a lot of soul searching. I knew people would misuse this. But you can't control other people.” &nbsp;&nbsp;</b></i></p><p><i>That’s not soul searching, that’s tactical PR strategy intended to confuse rather than clarify.<br />&nbsp;</i><i>Another dramatic example of right-wing Religion in action - and Republican Absolutism driven ruthlessness and dirty tricks.</i></p><p><i>He finishes with: "&nbsp;</i>I will have another post on this topic in a few days. &nbsp;Being retired sure is liberating . . ."</p><p>I dare not peek ahead, another wormhole trap awaiting, can't do it. &nbsp;too overloaded already.</p><p><br /></p><p>Still I'm&nbsp;curious about this dude. &nbsp;I read&nbsp;<a rel="nofollow" href="https://judithcurry.com/2017/02/04/climate-scientists-versus-climate-data/" title="Link: https://judithcurry.com/2017/02/04/climate-scientists-versus-climate-data/">http://blog.hotwhopper.com/2017/02/another-big-week-in-climate-and.html&nbsp;</a>&nbsp;the comments are interesting, I wonder what else is out there.</p><p>Anyone have information or interesting links about this meteorologist John Bates and the contrarian <i>crazy-making</i> game he's enlisted himself into?&nbsp;</p></div>]]>
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        <title>"Are Democrats Falling Into Trump’s Trap?" (Food for Thought), by Frank Brumi, NYT</title>
        <link>http://www.hotwhopper.com/chat/discussion/226/are-democrats-falling-into-trump-s-trap-food-for-thought-by-frank-brumi-nyt</link>
        <pubDate>Tue, 14 Feb 2017 23:31:38 +0000</pubDate>
        <category>Politics and Society</category>
        <dc:creator>citizenschallenge</dc:creator>
        <guid isPermaLink="false">226@/chat/discussions</guid>
        <description><![CDATA[A day of nonstop interruptions and nothing accomplished, except I read something that resonated deeply with some of my own fears, and&nbsp;<br /><br /><h1>Are Democrats Falling Into Trump’s Trap?</h1><div><div><div><p><a rel="nofollow" href="https://www.nytimes.com/column/frank-bruni" title="Link: https://www.nytimes.com/column/frank-bruni">Frank Bruni</a>&nbsp;FEB. 11, 2017 |. New York Times</p></div></div><div><p>... Trump provokes ire by the minute, but the response needs to be fashioned by the day or even week, lest everything blur. Resistance is a dish best served with discernment. Too much salt and you can’t taste the food itself.</p><p>That’s the trap with Trump, and Democrats fell into it during the presidential election, either not realizing how thoroughly he became the reference point for every conversation or not figuring out a way to mitigate that. Opposition to him crowded out support for anything else. Every negative moment came at the expense of a positive one.</p><p>“The Democratic National Committee and Hillary Clinton pretty much communicated what was bad about Trump but failed to communicate what was great about Hillary Clinton and the Democratic Party,” said Sally Boynton Brown, the executive director of the Democratic Party in Idaho. &nbsp;...<br /></p><p><br /></p><p>... All of that’s true. But none of it gets at larger challenges that were much less frequently mentioned, if at all: the necessity of grooming and rallying behind candidates who can forge an emotional connection with voters and are in sync with the moment; the imperative of studying the map, identifying every Senate and House seat that could possibly swing to Democrats in 2018 and playing a ruthlessly pragmatic game of chess; the articulation of a down-to-earth, visceral message that resonates with as many voters as possible. “I’m with her” didn’t cut it.</p><p>Another of the D.N.C. candidates, Raymond Buckley, the chairman of the Democratic Party in New Hampshire, acknowledged to me, “Sometimes we try to impress ourselves too much by talking about issues that are overly complex when the populace really wants you to boil it down to a much more simplistic message.” ...</p><p><br /></p><p>...&nbsp;Listening to him that night and to the D.N.C. candidates over the following months, I found myself thinking that maybe Democrats didn’t do badly&nbsp;<em>enough&nbsp;</em>in 2016. &nbsp;... &nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/11/opinion/are-democrats-falling-into-trumps-trap.html" rel="nofollow">https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/11/opinion/are-democrats-falling-into-trumps-trap.html</a></p></div></div>]]>
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        <title>DIEHARD CODERS JUST RESCUED NASA’S EARTH SCIENCE DATA</title>
        <link>http://www.hotwhopper.com/chat/discussion/227/diehard-coders-just-rescued-nasa-s-earth-science-data</link>
        <pubDate>Wed, 15 Feb 2017 02:12:37 +0000</pubDate>
        <category>Politics and Society</category>
        <dc:creator>citizenschallenge</dc:creator>
        <guid isPermaLink="false">227@/chat/discussions</guid>
        <description><![CDATA[<br />This seems important and worth circulating among the educated crowd, a few of whom may be able to help.<br /><br />cheers<br />________________________________________________________<br /><br />DIEHARD CODERS JUST RESCUED NASA’S EARTH SCIENCE DATA
<br />MEGAN MOLTENI. 02.13.17 -&nbsp;<br /><br /><a rel="nofollow" href="http://fortune.com/2017/01/22/climate-data-trump-admin-hackers/">http://fortune.com/2017/01/22/climate-data-trump-admin-hackers/</a><br /><br /><br /><p>ON SATURDAY MORNING,&nbsp;the white stone buildings on UC Berkeley’s campus radiated with unfiltered sunshine. The sky was blue, the campanile was chiming. But instead of enjoying the beautiful day, 200 adults had willingly sardined themselves into a fluorescent-lit room in the bowels of Doe Library to rescue federal&nbsp;<a rel="nofollow" href="https://www.wired.com/tag/climate-science/">climate data</a>.</p><p>Like&nbsp;<a rel="nofollow" href="https://www.wired.com/2017/01/rogue-scientists-race-save-climate-data-trump/">similar groups</a>&nbsp;across the country—in more than 20 cities—they believe that the Trump administration might want to disappear this data down a memory hole. So these hackers, scientists, and students are collecting it to save outside government servers.</p><p>But now they’re going even further. Groups like&nbsp;<a rel="nofollow" href="https://www.datarefuge.org/">DataRefuge</a>and the&nbsp;<a rel="nofollow" href="https://envirodatagov.org/">Environmental Data and Governance Initiative</a>, which organized the Berkeley hackathon to collect data from&nbsp;<a rel="nofollow" href="https://www.wired.com/2017/01/trump-names-former-climate-scientist-erik-noble-nasa-advisory-role/">NASA’s earth sciences programs</a>&nbsp;and the Department of Energy, are doing more than archiving. Diehard coders are building robust systems to monitor ongoing changes to government websites. And they’re keeping track of what’s already been removed—because yes, the pruning has already begun.</p><h3>Tag It, Bag It</h3>...<br /><br /><h3>Future Farming</h3><p>Later that afternoon, two dozen or so of the most advanced software builders gathered around whiteboards, sketching out tools they’ll need. They worked out filters to separate mundane updates from major shake-ups, and explored blockchain-like systems to build auditable ledgers of alterations. Basically it’s an issue of what engineers call version control—how do you know if something has changed? How do you know if you have the latest? How do you keep track of the old stuff?</p><div>...<br /><br />There was still so much work to do. “Climate change data is just the tip of the iceberg,” says Eric Kansa, an anthropologist who manages archaeological data archiving for the non-profit group Open Context. “There are a huge number of other datasets being threatened with cultural, historical, sociological information.” A panicked friend at the National Parks Service had tipped him off to a huge data portal that contains everything from park visitation stats to GIS boundaries to inventories of species. While he sat at the bar, his computer ran scripts to pull out a list of everything in the portal. When it’s done, he’ll start working his way through each quirky dataset.<br /></div>]]>
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        <title>Clive Hamilton takes a stand</title>
        <link>http://www.hotwhopper.com/chat/discussion/224/clive-hamilton-takes-a-stand</link>
        <pubDate>Sat, 11 Feb 2017 14:24:10 +0000</pubDate>
        <category>Politics and Society</category>
        <dc:creator>Sou</dc:creator>
        <guid isPermaLink="false">224@/chat/discussions</guid>
        <description><![CDATA[After the fiasco in Australian Parliament this week, and the earlier push from the Prime Minister and Minister for Environment and Energy to use money set aside for clean energy to build more dirty coal plants, Clive Hamilton has had enough. He's resigned from the Climate Change Authority.<br /><br />More here:&nbsp;<a rel="nofollow" href="http://blog.hotwhopper.com/2017/02/dirty-coal-heat-waves-and-floods-and.html" title="Link: http://blog.hotwhopper.com/2017/02/dirty-coal-heat-waves-and-floods-and.html">http://blog.hotwhopper.com/2017/02/dirty-coal-heat-waves-and-floods-and.html</a>&nbsp;including the resignation letter, which is rather good.]]>
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        <title>Trump Republicans and understanding their God thing.</title>
        <link>http://www.hotwhopper.com/chat/discussion/182/trump-republicans-and-understanding-their-god-thing</link>
        <pubDate>Wed, 21 Dec 2016 06:38:33 +0000</pubDate>
        <category>Politics and Society</category>
        <dc:creator>citizenschallenge</dc:creator>
        <guid isPermaLink="false">182@/chat/discussions</guid>
        <description><![CDATA[<div><p>My latest post, that I think worth sharing. &nbsp;I leave off the beginning though here is a link to the song in question, it really is a beautiful profound things. &nbsp;</p><p>Eagles "Last Resort"</p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hdx6oyBOVj0" title="Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hdx6oyBOVj0">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hdx6oyBOVj0</a><br /></p><p>If after reading the following anyone had anything to add or subtract or play with, please do. &nbsp; <img src="http://www.hotwhopper.com/chat/plugins/EmojiExtender/emoji/little/smiley.png" title="=)" alt="=)" srcset="/chat/plugins/EmojiExtender/emoji/little/smiley@2x.png 2x" /> </p><p>___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________</p><p>The post itself starts with “The Last Resort” and focuses on the challenge of getting Merrick Garland his Supreme Court nomination vote on January 3rd {For info&nbsp;&nbsp;<b><a rel="nofollow" href="http://citizenschallenge.blogspot.com/2016/12/demand-jan3-vote-merrick-garland.html" title="Link: http://citizenschallenge.blogspot.com/2016/12/demand-jan3-vote-merrick-garland.html">http://citizenschallenge.blogspot.com/2016/12/demand-jan3-vote-merrick-garland.html</a></b>}</p><p><br /></p><blockquote><p><b><a rel="nofollow" href="http://citizenschallenge.blogspot.com/2016/12/trumps-theme-song-and-god.html" title="Link: http://citizenschallenge.blogspot.com/2016/12/trumps-theme-song-and-god.html">http://citizenschallenge.blogspot.com/2016/12/trumps-theme-song-and-god.html</a></b><br />...We The People can not hope for President Obama and the cowering Democratic Senators to do this on their own!&nbsp; We as American individuals need to make the personal effort to demand they stand united and insistent on voting Merrick Garland into the Supreme Court.</p><p>This is for keeps!&nbsp; January 3rd is the last change to get a little check and balance back into our government &gt;&nbsp; Something the absolutist, faith-based crowd are loath to do since these people have actually convinced themselves, they are on God’s holy mission.&nbsp;&nbsp;<br />Think about that.</p><p>Speaking of “God”</p><p>Realize and consider that these self-certain absolutist Republican emotional children don’t appreciate the profound difference between Personal Truths and Universal Truths.&nbsp; They refuse to grapple with the spiritual reality that although we can know God in our hearts, we (that is petty self-serving humans) will never know more than a vague shadow play of the real God of Time and Creation, Life and Love.&nbsp; The Bible even warns people that God is beyond human understanding, Philippians 4:7 but the children refuse to grow up and see.&nbsp; 1 Corinthians 13:11</p><p>What’s sad is that I know it’s not hard for an honest spiritual seeker to grasp that God is beyond petty self-serving human’s ability to comprehend, we can only know shadow plays and through those shadow plays better understand ourselves and our lives.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p><p>When I was young I can remember that in America a person’s Faith was reflected in how they lived their life and how they interacted with others and their communities.&nbsp; Heck it was my Southern Baptist grandma and her old Encyclopedia Britannica who taught me about dinosaurs, mastodons, evolution and helped spark my life long desire to learn about all aspects of Earth’s life story, then she’d say prayers with me at night.&nbsp; She lived her faith in God, she didn’t have to beat other people over the head with it!&nbsp;&nbsp;</p><p>Then came the 70s Jesus Freaks with their egomania and absolutism pretending that they had actually tapped into the real “God.”&nbsp; All the while perverting Jesus’ Passion into something it wasn’t.&nbsp; It’s ludicrous, but everyone let them get away with it and the brainwashing has been relentless ever since.&nbsp; Now this Trump comes along and played that scared, desperate-for-power tribe, like a fiddle.&nbsp; They are united and everyone’s future will be impacted mightily.</p><p>The thing that makes our future so frightening is that “Truth” and “Objective Facts” and “Constructive Learning” means nothing to these people - their mindscape sees nothing but their own self-interest, enemies and playing to win.&nbsp; They believe that fabricating fiction to replace objective facts is their Free Speech Right - in other words, to them fraud in the name of their personal God is okay.&nbsp; ... and the rest of us go along with their fantasy.&nbsp; Why?</p><p>Mind you, no enlightened self-interest is to be found in this crowd.&nbsp; They can’t fathom our planet Earth and it’s inhabitants as anything other than a bunch of commodities to be extracted and exploited as much as possible, as fast as possible and as cheaply as possible, no exceptions.&nbsp; (I’ve often wondered where the hell was everyone running to in such a hurry.)</p><p>Not to mention their difficulties with accepting the multiculturalism they forced on themselves.&nbsp; Plus their inability to grasp the simple facts of life and flow of years.&nbsp; (You know what I mean, more people, less room, accommodations must be made - Wanting to return to an imaginary yesteryear is an insane option.&nbsp; But that is Trump’s promise and their expectation.&nbsp; What will they do when he can’t deliver?&nbsp; What will they do when they learn they been played for fools?&nbsp; Or will Trump’s relentless rallies, create something else and much uglier altogether?&nbsp; Who will become the scapegoat for the failure to come?).</p><p>The general willful ignorance and arrogant disregard is appalling and all that stands between them and achieving their short-sighted dreams and We The People’s worst nightmares - is an overwhelmingly uninformed and apathetic public.&nbsp; Who’s going to wake them up?&nbsp;&nbsp;</p></blockquote></div><div></div>]]>
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        <title>Trump's attempts to demolish the USA (and the world)</title>
        <link>http://www.hotwhopper.com/chat/discussion/207/trumps-attempts-to-demolish-the-usa-and-the-world</link>
        <pubDate>Wed, 25 Jan 2017 03:00:25 +0000</pubDate>
        <category>Politics and Society</category>
        <dc:creator>Sou</dc:creator>
        <guid isPermaLink="false">207@/chat/discussions</guid>
        <description><![CDATA[Here are some things that Donald Trump is doing to help wreck the environment, the USA, and the world - up to his first four days in office:<br /><ol><li>Nominating science-deniers and corporations (or their proxies) to Cabinet positions (like in charge of the EPA)</li><li>Nominating an anti-education person to head up education (keep the plebs ignorant)</li><li>Approving the Keystone and Dakota oil pipelines</li><li>Silencing (not merely censoring) science and environmental organisations: National Parks, EPA, Department of Agriculture etc</li></ol>The Department of Agriculture is <a rel="nofollow" href="https://twitter.com/SouBundanga/status/824060359589797888">not even allowed to promote its published research</a>. This, together with his isolationist stance and wanting to bring in high tariffs, will not be good for US farmers and the US agricultural sector. (It will probably help the agriculture sectors in Australia, South America and South Africa, though.)<br /><br />Trump is not just wanting to build a wall to keep out Mexicans and <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.businessinsider.com/r-exclusive-trump-expected-to-sign-executive-orders-on-immigration-2017-1?IR=T" title="Link: http://www.businessinsider.com/r-exclusive-trump-expected-to-sign-executive-orders-on-immigration-2017-1?IR=T">refugees from the Middle East</a>, he is effectively wanting to build a wall to cut off the USA from the rest of the world.&nbsp;<br /><br />He is brow-beating US and international corporations. I wonder which will buck him, and which will be spineless and kow tow to him?<br /><br />He and his band of old men has just <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/entry/donald-trump-abortion-men_us_5886369be4b0e3a7356a7910">signed the Gag order</a> to kill not just women, but that will deprive needy people of services offered by NGOs around the world.<br /><div><img alt="" src="http://www.hotwhopper.com/chat/uploads/editor/fq/pvcvsdzbb2kp.png" title="Image: http://www.hotwhopper.com/chat/uploads/editor/fq/pvcvsdzbb2kp.png" /></div><br />He also took on the mantle of a dictator, in a gross imitation of North Korea, <a rel="nofollow" href="https://twitter.com/SouBundanga/status/823763025895165953" title="Link: https://twitter.com/SouBundanga/status/823763025895165953">formally declared his inauration day</a> as "<b>National Day of Patriotic Devotion</b>" - can you believe it? If not, <a rel="nofollow" href="https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2017/01/24/2017-01798/national-day-of-patriotic-devotion" title="Link: https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2017/01/24/2017-01798/national-day-of-patriotic-devotion">the evidence is here on the Federal Register</a>.<br /><br />It's reported that he's <a rel="nofollow" href="http://variety.com/2017/digital/news/white-house-switchboard-facebook-messenger-1201967138/" title="Link: http://variety.com/2017/digital/news/white-house-switchboard-facebook-messenger-1201967138/">cut off any means of the public</a> communicating with the White House, too.<br /><br />One slim ray of hope is that Trump set a new record as the <a rel="nofollow" href="https://twitter.com/SouBundanga/status/823885452566401026" title="Link: https://twitter.com/SouBundanga/status/823885452566401026">most unpopular President on inauguration</a>.<br /><br />BTW - the No. 1 best seller in <a rel="nofollow" href="https://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/digital-text/7588747011/">Contemporary Literary Fiction on Amazon today</a>, is George Orwell's 1984 (archived <a rel="nofollow" href="https://archive.is/HzH2n">here</a>):<br /><br /><div><img alt="" src="http://www.hotwhopper.com/chat/uploads/editor/1v/qi8n458rn989.png" title="Image: http://www.hotwhopper.com/chat/uploads/editor/1v/qi8n458rn989.png" /></div><br /><br />What else have Donald Trump and his henchmen (and a couple of henchwomen) done lately?<br />]]>
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        <title>Dark days ahead - rise above despair</title>
        <link>http://www.hotwhopper.com/chat/discussion/156/dark-days-ahead-rise-above-despair</link>
        <pubDate>Wed, 09 Nov 2016 11:22:15 +0000</pubDate>
        <category>Politics and Society</category>
        <dc:creator>Sou</dc:creator>
        <guid isPermaLink="false">156@/chat/discussions</guid>
        <description><![CDATA[This is a blog post - but it fits in this politics and society category. It starts out with this;<br /><blockquote>My first reaction on hearing of Donald Trump's probably victory was an emotional jolt, accompanied by the physical sensation of nausea. This is despite the fact that I was partly prepared. I was at a meeting in a tiny town in rural New South Wales, with a number of other people from various walks of life.<br /><br />Internet reception was patchy (very poor Optus coverage) and I had to take the laptop outside to learn what was happening. When I came back to the meeting and told everyone that Trump was the likely next US President, people were shocked and dismayed. There were comments about Nazi Germany, melting away of life savings, and concerns about how the Putin-Trump relationship would adversely affect global stability, particularly in regard to China. (Australia's security and place in the world is now under threat, and we will need to adapt and find new allies.)</blockquote>Read the full article on the blog:&nbsp;<a rel="nofollow" href="http://blog.hotwhopper.com/2016/11/dark-days-ahead-rise-above-despair.html">Dark days ahead - rise above despair</a>]]>
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        <title>Donald Trump Is the First Demagogue of the Anthropocene, and other ramblings</title>
        <link>http://www.hotwhopper.com/chat/discussion/146/donald-trump-is-the-first-demagogue-of-the-anthropocene-and-other-ramblings</link>
        <pubDate>Sat, 22 Oct 2016 05:04:19 +0000</pubDate>
        <category>Politics and Society</category>
        <dc:creator>citizenschallenge</dc:creator>
        <guid isPermaLink="false">146@/chat/discussions</guid>
        <description><![CDATA[For all you realists out there, here's an interesting article worth reading and pondering.<br />I look at the world from a 61 year old's amazed to still be here eyes, if I get another decade it'll be a bonus -<br />fact is my lean years, my hungry years, my years of dreaming and reaching for the future, those have come and gone.<br />Nowadays I realize that today is the best day of the rest of my life, so I better enjoy it for all I can squeeze out of it, and I'm okay with that.<br /><br />Thus, I have the luxury of a certain distance younger folks simply don't have. &nbsp;The world in thirty, forty, fifty years is tangible to them.<br /><br />Thanks to the disinformation campaign most out there don't have a clue what's heading our way, they are buying homes with thirty year mortgages dreaming of their baby's college savings, when the next twenty years down the road will see increasing disruption and intensification of weather patterns. &nbsp;Scorching heat and dry spells broken by torrential downpours, and who knows what all cascading consequences. &nbsp;I myself find it inconceivable that the society of two, three decades into our future will resemble today's in anything but its roughest outlines.<br /><br />Oh, but I digress this article is about the 'mindscape' of Trump fans.<br /><br /><blockquote><b>Donald Trump Is the First Demagogue of the Anthropocene</b><br />He won’t be the last.<br /><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.theatlantic.com/author/robinson-meyer/">ROBINSON MEYER</a>&nbsp;|&nbsp;OCT 19, 2016<br /><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/10/trump-the-first-demagogue-of-the-anthropocene/504134/" title="Link: http://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/10/trump-the-first-demagogue-of-the-anthropocene/504134/">http://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/10/trump-the-first-demagogue-of-the-anthropocene/504134/</a><br /><br />I write and report on climate change, not a pursuit that usually encourages optimism, but watching all this unfold with the atmosphere in mind has been particularly bleak. For the past few months in particular, I’ve been thinking: Wow, this is all happening&nbsp;<em>way</em>&nbsp;earlier than I thought it would.<br /><br />Spend enough time with some of the worst-case climate scenarios, and you may start to assume, as I did, that a major demagogue would contest the presidency in the next century. I figured that the catastrophic consequences of planetary warming would all but ensure the necessary conditions for such a leader, and I imagined their support coming from a movement motivated by ethnonationalism, economic stagnation, and hatred of immigrants and refugees. I pictured, in other words, something not so far from Trump 2016.<br /><br />I just assumed it wouldn’t pop up until 2040.<br /><br />This kind of worry is speculative—<em>very</em>&nbsp;speculative—but it is not ungrounded. ...</blockquote><p>This stuff is important because we need to understanding what's going with them. &nbsp;I believe it's helpful to appreciate that the faith-based right-wing crowd is being brainwashed to blame other people for all their woes. &nbsp;As their woes increase their fears, rage and need for scapegoats is also increased. &nbsp;They don't have any time or interest in rational discussions. &nbsp;Well at least not until the dust settles, if then.</p><p>What will that look like? &nbsp;People will surely survive much longer than today's global social networks. &nbsp;Younger folks who intend to live their full life spans will need to prepare on two fronts. &nbsp;The social front of networking with like minded, dealing with or hiding from others. &nbsp;The physical front of dealing with what Earth's transitioning climate tosses at us. &nbsp;The latter will probably be easier to deal with than the former.<br /></p><div><div></div></div>]]>
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        <title>We're sorry! (for The Donald)</title>
        <link>http://www.hotwhopper.com/chat/discussion/155/were-sorry-for-the-donald</link>
        <pubDate>Wed, 09 Nov 2016 07:03:27 +0000</pubDate>
        <category>Politics and Society</category>
        <dc:creator>PG_Antioch</dc:creator>
        <guid isPermaLink="false">155@/chat/discussions</guid>
        <description><![CDATA[All of the results aren't yet in, but it appears extremely likely that The Donald (Drumpf - his family's name before they came to the US) (I've been calling him "The Donald" since I heard Ivaná use it in 1989) has been elected the next US president, to take office on 2017 Jan 20. Republicans appear to have retained both houses of Congress. This means they'll also hold the Supreme Court. We in California certainly tried our best, &amp; chose Hillary by more than 20%, but the rest of the US is going a different way.<br /><br />In 2004, many of us felt we had to apologize/apologise to the world for re-electing George W Bush (although actually, VP Cheney was the real leader for the 1st 6 years). I'm afraid this is much, much, much&nbsp;worse. The Donald &amp; the Republicans are going to double-down on Cheneybush&nbsp;tax cuts for the rich, throwing in with trickle-down economics, &amp; simultaneously erect protectionist barriers,&nbsp;which of course will be catastrophic for the US &amp; the world - not to mention most of The Donald's voters - which they'll find out the hard way. Markets are crashing all over the world. (Former Pres George HW Bush called&nbsp;trickle-down "voodoo econimics" in 1980, &amp; he was absolutely right.) Of course that's all beside The Donald's horrendous comments, attitudes &amp; actions toward Mexicans, Muslims, women, people with disabilities,&nbsp;etc, etc, etc.<br /><br />Worse, The Donald is a full-on climate change denier, &amp; denial indeed is essentially&nbsp;the official policy of the Republican party. He says he'll withdraw from the Paris COP21 agreement, cancel Obama's Clean Power Plan (which mandates lower CO2 emissions state-by-state for power plants), stop all (or virtually all) climate change research &amp; close the Environmental Protection Agency. He may not be able to get away will all of that, but he'll probably be able to do a lot of it. It's doubtful that he'll be able close NASA or NOAA, &amp; they have ways to continue research, but the EPA is less popular,&nbsp;both&nbsp;with the public &amp; the Congress.<br /><br />In many US&nbsp;states &amp; cities, there is a lot of momentum toward renewable energy. We all know how rapidly the price environment is changing, &amp; solar will inexorably win on price over the next decade. The Donald &amp; his Republican minions can slow this down, &amp; do a LOT of damage, but over the long run they'll lose. Do we have enough time?<br /><br />Although I realize/realise that name-calling is usually unproductive, I'm afraid I&nbsp;believe that the actions of&nbsp;The Donald, the Republican party &amp; their denialist fossil fuel industry sponsors&nbsp;are basically psychotic, sociopathic, dangerous, evil, muderous &amp; idiotic.&nbsp;Of course some of them are&nbsp;actually capable of perceiving reality,&nbsp;but&nbsp;are venal &amp; duplicitious, lying through their teeth while they line their pockets with fossil fuel money &amp; ignore the consequences to our progeny. Maybe they figure they'll be dead, so who cares?<br /><br />This is a truly horrendous day for the climate &amp; for human civilization/civilisation. We're sorry. Maybe if the entire world speaks with one voice, The Donald &amp; the Republicans won't be able to do quite as much damage.]]>
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        <title>Network sector prefers carbon pricing. Truly? Or because it won't happen?</title>
        <link>http://www.hotwhopper.com/chat/discussion/173/network-sector-prefers-carbon-pricing-truly-or-because-it-wont-happen</link>
        <pubDate>Tue, 06 Dec 2016 06:39:49 +0000</pubDate>
        <category>Politics and Society</category>
        <dc:creator>Ken Fabian</dc:creator>
        <guid isPermaLink="false">173@/chat/discussions</guid>
        <description><![CDATA[<a rel="nofollow" href="https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/dec/06/australias-energy-transmission-industry-calls-for-carbon-trading" title="Link: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/dec/06/australias-energy-transmission-industry-calls-for-carbon-trading">https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/dec/06/australias-energy-transmission-industry-calls-for-carbon-trading</a> <br /><br />It's difficult not to be cynical about an industry that has so consistently resisted strong climate action. Just like I wondered if former Australian PM Tony Abbott's climate policy was<i> designed and intended</i> to be voted down by the Senate - where, if not for a maverick coal baron bearing grudges The Greens and Labor rather than the policy's deep inadequacies would be set up to be blamed for Australia having no climate policy at all - I can't help but wonder if our energy network operators are saying they prefer the policy most economists and other experts think would be the most effective, <i>because</i> they are so confident it won't be adopted. They can claim some kind of moral high ground when the government decision, surprise, surprise, is to reject it, leaving them in the "limbo" of business as usual. I've suspected a lot of "you should use nuclear" proposals from people who have opposed strong climate action by other means and even deny there is a climate problem of using a similar tactic - raising an impossible bar too high, with anything less to be rejected. Perfection used as the enemy of good enough - or even of better than nothing.<br /><br />Am I overly cynical? Overly skeptical - in the climate science denier sense of that word? I'd like to think - trust - this is evidence of an industry that has it's eyes open about climate and emissions and it's future but I just can't bring myself to put aside my suspicion there is not merely an absence of sincerity but we are seeing a dirty kind of gamesmanship being played with our future. Clearly there will be some kind of alternative policy but with a government consistent in seeking, usually with slick blame shifting, the least possible climate action I just can't feel optimistic it will be effective or adequate.<br /><br /><br />]]>
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        <title>Far right concedes defeat in Austrian presidential election</title>
        <link>http://www.hotwhopper.com/chat/discussion/172/far-right-concedes-defeat-in-austrian-presidential-election</link>
        <pubDate>Sun, 04 Dec 2016 19:56:00 +0000</pubDate>
        <category>Politics and Society</category>
        <dc:creator>citizenschallenge</dc:creator>
        <guid isPermaLink="false">172@/chat/discussions</guid>
        <description><![CDATA[Well there is some good news out there. &nbsp;&nbsp; <img src="http://www.hotwhopper.com/chat/plugins/EmojiExtender/emoji/little/smiley.png" title="=)" alt="=)" srcset="/chat/plugins/EmojiExtender/emoji/little/smiley@2x.png 2x" /> <br /><blockquote><a rel="nofollow" href="https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2016/dec/04/italian-referendum-and-austrian-presidential-election-live" title="Link: https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2016/dec/04/italian-referendum-and-austrian-presidential-election-live">https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2016/dec/04/italian-referendum-and-austrian-presidential-election-live</a><br /><br />Alexander Van der Bellen: who is Austria's new president?<br /><br />So who is the new&nbsp;<strong>Austrian</strong>&nbsp;president? Alexander Van der Bellen is<strong>&nbsp;</strong>a tall, austere 72-year-old retired economics professor, a Green MP for 18 years before leaving parliament in 2012 to become a popular Vienna city councillor.&nbsp;<br /><br />Van der Bellen’s father was born in Russia to a family descended from Dutch immigrants. His mother was born in Estonia, from where both fled when the Red Army invaded in 1940, moving first to Germany and eventually settling in&nbsp;<a rel="nofollow" href="https://www.theguardian.com/world/austria" title="Link: https://www.theguardian.com/world/austria">Austria</a>.<br /><br />Viewed by many conservatives as too leftwing, and by more militant Greens as not radical enough, Van der Bellen spent the early part of his political career in the Social Democrats.&nbsp;<br /><br />He campaigned on an unashamedly pro-European platform, arguing that Austria’s economic growth depended on it and saying this evening:&nbsp;<br />"From the beginning, I fought and argued for a pro-European Austria. I would think it a big mistake to promote the drifting apart of the EU." ...</blockquote><p><br /></p>]]>
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        <title>Profiles in Treason - Citizens United</title>
        <link>http://www.hotwhopper.com/chat/discussion/167/profiles-in-treason-citizens-united</link>
        <pubDate>Mon, 28 Nov 2016 16:52:49 +0000</pubDate>
        <category>Politics and Society</category>
        <dc:creator>citizenschallenge</dc:creator>
        <guid isPermaLink="false">167@/chat/discussions</guid>
        <description><![CDATA[Are we having fun yet?&nbsp;<br /><br /><br />I wanted to copy paste some key quotes and try starting a discussion,<br />but don't have the time (2 hours late already and the weather is turning on me) for any more of this.<br />But, it seemed like something I needed to get posted and out there.<br /><br /><a rel="nofollow" href="http://citizenschallenge.blogspot.com/2016/11/profiles-in-treason-citizens-united.html" title="Link: http://citizenschallenge.blogspot.com/2016/11/profiles-in-treason-citizens-united.html">http://citizenschallenge.blogspot.com/2016/11/profiles-in-treason-citizens-united.html</a><br /><br />If anyone cared to help spread this stuff please do.<br /><br /><i>Sou thank you for your Hotwhopper Link, it's always good for a number of visits, think I might actually have some regulars.</i>]]>
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        <title>Anyone here familiar with The Daily Banter? - need to support independent news</title>
        <link>http://www.hotwhopper.com/chat/discussion/164/anyone-here-familiar-with-the-daily-banter-need-to-support-independent-news</link>
        <pubDate>Wed, 23 Nov 2016 03:36:57 +0000</pubDate>
        <category>Politics and Society</category>
        <dc:creator>citizenschallenge</dc:creator>
        <guid isPermaLink="false">164@/chat/discussions</guid>
        <description><![CDATA[Anyone here familiar with the Daily Banter? &nbsp;I admit to being limited in my media scanning and was wondering if anyone here knows anything about them.<br />Looking at this page I came across got me to thinking that I should step up and buy a subscription and perhaps even post about them. &nbsp;It is so desperately important that people start getting woken up, perhaps it is a fools errant and it's all already lost, but its not over yet, and struggling for something is better than getting wrapped in despair and apathy and rolling over for it.<br />Heck $40.00 a year. &nbsp;I can spring that. &nbsp;Independent News sources are expensive to maintain, they will need our individual help more than ever.<br /><br />If anyone has any insights about these folks please do share.<br /><br /><br /><a rel="nofollow" href="http://thedailybanter.com/page/about/" title="Link: http://thedailybanter.com/page/about/">http://thedailybanter.com/page/about/</a><br /><br /><blockquote>The Banter started in 2007 when Editor in Chief Ben Cohen got fed up with watching the corporate news not doing its job properly. After several years as a single person blog, the Banter relaunched in 2012 bringing on several prominent columnists like Bob Cesca, Chez Pazienza and White House reporter Tommy Christopher. Since then, the Banter has grown month after month, year after year and has become a highly respected voice in today’s media landscape.<br />In the Industry<br /><br />We are quoted regularly by publications like the<em>&nbsp;New York Times, Washington Post, the Guardian, Salon, The Huffington Post,&nbsp;</em>and<em>&nbsp;Gawker</em>&nbsp;for our reporting and political commentary. We’ve probably offended all of them at one point (but they still read us!).<br /><br /><b>Our Work</b><br />At the Banter, we aim to provide our readers with witty, lively commentary on a broad array of topics. We are primarily a political mag, but we also cover media, pop culture, and sports. We do not do viral content, we do not trick readers with misleading headlines, and virtually everything we publish is our own.<br /><br />We do our best to take down idiocy on both sides of the political spectrum and provide well researched, witty analysis to keep our readers sane. We crowd funded a&nbsp;<a rel="nofollow" href="http://thedailybanter.com/2014/08/live-ferguson-peace-pepper-spray/">trip to Ferguson</a>&nbsp;to report on the police protests, have broken serious stories, and even helped authorities&nbsp;<a rel="nofollow" href="http://thedailybanter.com/2014/05/exclusive-the-daily-banters-investigation-helps-catch-sandy-hook-memorial-thief/" title="Link: http://thedailybanter.com/2014/05/exclusive-the-daily-banters-investigation-helps-catch-sandy-hook-memorial-thief/">catch high profile criminals</a>&nbsp;with our reporting.<br /><br /><b>The Mission, and Your Help</b><br />Independent media is struggling to survive in the digital age. We want to prove that independent journalism and commentary can not only survive, but thrive. Ad revenue cannot sustain professionally run sites like The Daily Banter, and we need reader support to continue to do what we do. If you believe what we do is important,&nbsp;<a rel="nofollow" href="http://thedailybanter.com/banter-members/" title="Link: http://thedailybanter.com/banter-members/">become a subscriber</a>&nbsp;and help us on our mission to fund real content!<br />Read more about the team&nbsp;<a rel="nofollow" href="http://thedailybanter.com/banter-media/">here</a>!</blockquote><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p>]]>
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        <title>Phone conversation with DNC's Donna Brazile - Dworkin Report</title>
        <link>http://www.hotwhopper.com/chat/discussion/161/phone-conversation-with-dncs-donna-brazile-dworkin-report</link>
        <pubDate>Wed, 16 Nov 2016 05:47:26 +0000</pubDate>
        <category>Politics and Society</category>
        <dc:creator>citizenschallenge</dc:creator>
        <guid isPermaLink="false">161@/chat/discussions</guid>
        <description><![CDATA[<p>I’ve been seeing a lot of post election directionless venting and finger pointing.&nbsp; The massive protests amaze me, as I wonder where was all that passion before the election, when it could have accomplished something?&nbsp; And now?&nbsp; Where’s any focus besides being mad that Trump won?&nbsp; Why not focus on demanding answers to nagging question of national security importance?</p>
<p>I don’t mean answers about FBI Director Comey's election manipulating Clinton Email announcements.&nbsp; Clinton totally failed in preparing for that inevitability, and she was never capable of putting that contrived scandal into understandable perspective.&nbsp; Her failing.&nbsp; Our loss.</p>
<p>That’s chump change next to demanding that FBI Director Comey explain why he covered up, dismissed and basically hid Trump’s extensive foreign business entanglements with governments that I’ve always known to be USA’s proclaimed enemies.&nbsp; I’ve been writing letters and trying to agitate interest in the Dworkin Report which details some of Trump’s entangles and petitions the Democratic Party to show some interest.&nbsp; Make no mistake, this is of national security interest and if Democrats don’t make a stand now, the Alt-right will steamroller us these next four years.</p>
<p>One of my emails went to DNC chairperson Donna Brazile and I was surprised to receive a prompt personal response.&nbsp; I felt she ignored what I’d emailed about and responded.&nbsp; We wound up exchanging a couple emails and then my phone rang with a Washington DC number.</p>
<p>&nbsp;The lady at the other end introduced herself and asked if I recognized her voice and if I understand who I was speaking with, “Yes ma’am, I do.”&nbsp;</p>
<p>It appears our email exchange caught her interest because although I was heaping scorn, she noticed the thoughtful thread running through my missive, which sadly appears to have been a singular exception in the deluge of anger she’s currently receiving.</p>
<p>I think she reached out because of curiosity, respect for my forwardness and to voice her support and encouragement for this effort.&nbsp; I suspect she also wanted to do a little venting of her own, which was alright considering&nbsp;what&nbsp;she's been going through. &nbsp;She made some excellent points to ponder. &nbsp;</p>
<p>She asked me if I’d been contacting my Senator and Representative, or how many letters to the editor I’d written before the election?&nbsp; She pointed out that a couple months back while the DNC was doing its best to investigate the Russian computer hacks, where were the Democratic Senators and Representatives voicing concern and demanding answers and that more be done by the FBI and others?</p>
<p>Where was the concern and attention of our news media?&nbsp; Where were concerned Democratic voters and other citizens when the DNC needed their encouragement and prodding and support?&nbsp;</p>
<p>That’s how democracy works, only if you are putting pressure on your Representatives can you hope for action!&nbsp; That’s the lesson the Alt-right has been perfecting under our noses for a couple decades now. Will this experience help us learn?</p>
<p>She helped remind me that she was doing one limited job in an enormous enterprise that needed mutual cooperation and support.&nbsp; She helped remind me how much public grassroots interest and pressure matters. &nbsp;</p>
<p>Democracy demands that We The People get involved.&nbsp; All those people complaining about how the Democrats let us down, should also do a personal audit.&nbsp; I’m not saying take the DNC off the hook, I’m saying keep it real, don’t give yourself a free pass.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>
<p>As they used to say in my younger days: “If you aren’t part of the solution you are part of the problem” &nbsp;and “Democracy use it or lose it.”</p>
<p>Donna also took a moment to share some of her background.&nbsp; After the call I visited Wiki to learn more.&nbsp; Her public service record is impressive.&nbsp; Before tossing brickbats at her, why not go and see how you’d measure up next to her record.&nbsp; Then remember there’s plenty of blame to go around, all of us dropped the ball on this one.</p>
<p>That doesn't mean letting anyone off the hook, it means everyone accepting their due share of blame.&nbsp; But, even more importantly, we need to examine and learn from all we failed to see and react to.&nbsp; Then we have a chance of moving forward in a constructive collective effort.</p>
<p>Without massive public support, direction and prodding nothing will happen within the DNC and our way of life will get steamrollered by the angry, passionate, ruthless Alt-right.</p>
<p>We get the Democracy we deserve.&nbsp; All you colored and whites, rationalists, liberals, progressives, greens, humanists, LGBTQs, and such - it’s your move.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>
<p>The perfect democracy some feel entitled to never was.&nbsp; Now our system is going to get a lot tougher, perhaps even hostile and ugly thanks to our collective failure.&nbsp; But it’s what we have.&nbsp; If we want to participate in the real world, we need to be pragmatic, even if your dreams want better, this is the political system we need to be learning about, if we want to win at it. &nbsp;</p>
<p>Might I suggest the Dworkin Affair is a good,&nbsp;if not necessary,&nbsp;place to start.&nbsp; NOW!!! &nbsp;Before the Electoral College meets!&nbsp; Write letters demanding an investigation into Director Comey’s coverup and demand we learn the full extent of Trump’s extensive business entanglements in Russia and China, both having government controlled business.&nbsp; It won’t do a bit of good unless there is deluge of feedback.&nbsp; Before the Electoral College meets December 19th.&nbsp; It won’t turn back the results, but it will put Trump on notice, we are watching.&nbsp; Now that would be something worthing marching in the streets for.</p>
<p>Find out more:</p>
<p><br /></p>
<p>FBI Director Comey, the Dworkin Report, Hiding Trump's Cozy Russian Relationships</p>
<p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://citizenschallenge.blogspot.com/2016/11/trump-russian-obligate-as-president.html">http://citizenschallenge.blogspot.com/2016/11/trump-russian-obligate-as-president.html</a></p>
<p>~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~</p>
<p>Democratic National Committee's dereliction of duty, will they ever learn</p>
<p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://citizenschallenge.blogspot.com/2016/11/democratic-national-committee-rolling.html">http://citizenschallenge.blogspot.com/2016/11/democratic-national-committee-rolling.html</a></p><p>________________________________________</p><p><i>It would be grand if anyone cared to post that anywhere.</i></p><p><i>Cheers, Peter</i></p>]]>
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        <title>The Dworkin Report: Evidence Tying Donald Trump To Russia</title>
        <link>http://www.hotwhopper.com/chat/discussion/158/the-dworkin-report-evidence-tying-donald-trump-to-russia</link>
        <pubDate>Sat, 12 Nov 2016 06:02:34 +0000</pubDate>
        <category>Politics and Society</category>
        <dc:creator>citizenschallenge</dc:creator>
        <guid isPermaLink="false">158@/chat/discussions</guid>
        <description><![CDATA[<p><i>There's an interesting wrinkle over here. &nbsp;The question is what if America elected a Russian obligate and pawn President of the United States?</i></p><p><i>What if the evidence is overwhelming that Trump has repeatedly lied about the extent of his connects with Russian? &nbsp;Is there any expectation of honesty for an America President? &nbsp;Will the Democratic Party leaders muster the courage to scream bloody murder about this before the man is actually elected (Electoral College). &nbsp;</i><b><i>I think every concerned America should make a big stink about this. &nbsp;This is where public protests and specific demands might have a constructive place </i></b><i>- as opposed to the post election temper tantrums we saw in some cities.</i></p><p><i>Can you pass it along? &nbsp;The more people hear about this, who knows this disaster might be avoidable.</i></p><p><i><br /></i></p><h2><b>The Dworkin Report: Evidence Tying Donald Trump To Russia</b></h2><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://occupydemocrats.com/2016/11/11/obama-now-looking-trumps-ties-russia-fbi-ignored/" title="Link: http://occupydemocrats.com/2016/11/11/obama-now-looking-trumps-ties-russia-fbi-ignored/">http://occupydemocrats.com/2016/11/11/obama-now-looking-trumps-ties-russia-fbi-ignored/</a><b><br /></b></p>
<p>By</p>
<p>Scott J. Dworkin Co-Founder &amp; Senior Advisor The Democratic Coalition</p>
<p>November 10, 2016</p>
<p><br /></p>
<p>To:&nbsp; President Barack Obama, Vice President Joseph Biden, Senator Harry Reid, Senator Dianne Feinstein, Senator Patrick Leahy, Senator Elizabeth Warren, Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, Congressman Keith Ellison</p>
<p>By:&nbsp; Scott Dworkin</p>
<p>Re:&nbsp; Ties Between President-elect Trump and Russia, Contrary to FBI Conclusion Date:&nbsp; November 10, 2016</p>
<p>Dear Mr. President and Democratic Leadership-</p>
<p>Over the past few months the Democratic Coalition has taken extraordinary measures to disseminate the following information to the American public regarding the relationship between President-elect Donald Trump and Russia.</p>
<p>It is incumbent upon myself and our coalition to ensure that you are made fully aware of the ten pieces of evidence that follow. This evidence calls into question the recent conclusion made by the FBI, which stated that there was no clear connection between President-elect Trump and Russia to be found. As you will see, there are many pieces of clear, direct connections between the President-elect, Vladimir Putin, and the country of Russia.</p>
<p>Please note that this is the limited evidence that we have gathered to date, and is by no means a comprehensive report on the President-elect’s relationship with the country.</p>
<p>In solidarity, Scott J. Dworkin</p>
<p>_______________________________________________________</p>
<p>Exhibit Index</p>
<p>Exhibit 1</p>
<p>President-elect Trump on his travels to Moscow in 1987 (page 3)</p>
<p>Exhibit 2</p>
<p>President-elect Trump commissioned a $40 million statue by a Russian artist (page 4)</p>
<p>Exhibit 3</p>
<p>Trumps eye expansion into Russian market, according to Hotels Investment Outlook (page 5)</p>
<p>Exhibit 4</p>
<p>Trump Vodka and the Russian market (page 6)</p>
<p>Exhibit 5</p>
<p>Dr. Mikhail B. Piotrovsky, President-elect Trump and Vladimir Putin (page 8)</p>
<p>Exhibit 6</p>
<p>Donald Trump, Jr. interview in Riga, Latvia speaking about the Russian market (page 10)</p>
<p>Exhibit 7</p>
<p>President-elect Donald Trump discusses his relationship with Putin in an MSNBC interview with Thomas Roberts</p>
<p>(page 11)</p>
<p>Exhibit 8</p>
<p>Miss Universe 2013 in Moscow, Russia and the Crocus Group (page 12)</p>
<p>Exhibit 9</p>
<p>President-elect Trump’s advisor at dinner with Putin in 2015 (page 13)</p>
<p>Exhibit 10</p>
<p>249 business registered in Russia with Trump (Трамп) in the name (page 14)</p>
<p><a rel="nofollow" href="https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-eFTtx9hvN2mxjcPyBNZNsphkSri16rEjpTDLq3C0WU/edit#gid=0" title="Link: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-eFTtx9hvN2mxjcPyBNZNsphkSri16rEjpTDLq3C0WU/edit#gid=0">https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-eFTtx9hvN2mxjcPyBNZNsphkSri16rEjpTDLq3C0WU/edit#gid=0</a></p>]]>
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        <title>Looking at 2400</title>
        <link>http://www.hotwhopper.com/chat/discussion/151/looking-at-2400</link>
        <pubDate>Sat, 05 Nov 2016 07:31:28 +0000</pubDate>
        <category>Politics and Society</category>
        <dc:creator>john</dc:creator>
        <guid isPermaLink="false">151@/chat/discussions</guid>
        <description><![CDATA[In the year 2400 a survival craft which has 400 different males and females picked for the genetic make up from earth in 2100 have come back and are being woken up from the cryogenic situation they were in.<br />What do they face?&nbsp;]]>
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        <title>Malcom Turnbull wants to be Tony Abbott when he grows up.</title>
        <link>http://www.hotwhopper.com/chat/discussion/126/malcom-turnbull-wants-to-be-tony-abbott-when-he-grows-up</link>
        <pubDate>Thu, 29 Sep 2016 21:58:11 +0000</pubDate>
        <category>Politics and Society</category>
        <dc:creator>Contrail Chook</dc:creator>
        <guid isPermaLink="false">126@/chat/discussions</guid>
        <description><![CDATA[I was utterly disgusted with the pathetic performance by Truffles McLobster last night.<br /><br /><strong><a href="https://theconversation.com/turnbull-turns-south-australia-crisis-into-row-over-renewables-66297" rel="nofollow">Turnbull turns South Australia crisis into row over&nbsp;renewables</a></strong><br /><br /><blockquote><p>Maybe it was because he was in Tasmania and somewhat out of things. 
Or perhaps he was so intent on the political point he was about to make 
that he didn’t think the situation through.</p>

<p>For whatever reason, Malcolm Turnbull’s comments on the South 
Australian weather and power crisis at his Thursday news conference were
 notable for what they didn’t say.</p>

<p>Normally leaders drip sympathy for those affected by natural 
disasters. Turnbull paid tribute to the emergency services workers and 
those restoring power. But at no point did the Prime Minister express 
solidarity with ordinary South Australians. He was just anxious to get 
onto his argument about renewables.</p>

<p>The federal government has a new slogan. “We must keep the lights on.”</p>

<p>Indeed. First, however, let’s be clear why, <a href="https://theconversation.com/what-caused-south-australias-state-wide-blackout-66268" rel="nofollow">according to what the experts say</a>,
 the South Australian lights went off in such spectacular fashion. A 
massive storm tore out towers and brought down lines; lightning hit a 
power station. There was a “cascading failure” through the system, which
 shut down in self-protection.</p>

<p>The Australian Energy Market Operator (AEMO) says the reason for the 
“cascading failure” of the network is still to be identified. But it 
declares the mix between renewables and non-renewables was not a factor.</p></blockquote><br />After that stunt, the bloke has zero credibility left.<br /><br />He could have used it as an opportunity to simply point out (correctly) that coordination and balance is necessary across the national grid, and that all levels of government should come together to make that happen.<br /><br />Instead, he used it for blatant political point scoring, and is obviously trying to start another scare campaign about the evils of renewable energy to placate the hard right that controls him. Frankly we might as well have Barnaby Joyce as PM, for all the good Turnbull is likely to do for climate and energy policy.<br /><br />Of course what he didn't mention, while bagging Queensland for not having a concrete plan for achieving their emissions target, is that <i><a href="https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/sep/29/officials-admit-no-modelling-shows-how-australia-will-meet-paris-climate-pledge" rel="nofollow">his government has no idea how it will meet theirs</a></i>.<br /><br /><blockquote><p>Government officials have acknowledged that Australia’s 2030 
greenhouse gas emissions reductions pledged at Paris in 2015 were made 
without any modelling to show whether existing policies could achieve 
those targets.</p>
<p>They also admitted the government did not have any modelling revealing when Australia’s emissions would peak.</p>
<p>The admissions, made in a parliamentary committee under questioning 
from Labor Senator for New South Wales Jenny McAllister, fly in the face
 of <a href="http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/other/dfat/nia/2016/10.pdf" rel="nofollow">advice from the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade</a>, telling the government it had “existing legislation, policies and measures to enable it to achieve” the the reductions.</p><p>They also follow a string of independent modelling exercises showing 
current policies will not achieve the emissions reductions committed to 
in Paris. <a href="https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/sep/21/australias-emissions-wont-fall-by-2030-without-greater-climate-action-modelling-shows" rel="nofollow">Last week</a>
 energy advisory firm RepuTex released modelling showing Australia’s 
emissions wouldn’t fall much at all between now and 2030, under current 
policies.</p></blockquote><p><br /></p>If Turnbull is as keen on agility and innovation as he claims to be, why not get agile and innovative with our grid? Hell, we don't even have to be innovative. We can just copy Denmark. They already source more of their power from wind than South Australia does, and are <a title="Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_Denmark" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_Denmark" rel="nofollow">planning to ramp it up to 84% by 2035</a>.<br /><br />]]>
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        <title>The ABC has lost all credibility.</title>
        <link>http://www.hotwhopper.com/chat/discussion/145/the-abc-has-lost-all-credibility</link>
        <pubDate>Wed, 19 Oct 2016 20:25:04 +0000</pubDate>
        <category>Politics and Society</category>
        <dc:creator>Contrail Chook</dc:creator>
        <guid isPermaLink="false">145@/chat/discussions</guid>
        <description><![CDATA[Today's debacle on the ABC news site: Chris Uhlmann and Co doing more misleading reporting in an attempt to sink renewables.<br /><br />So on <a href="http://www.abc.net.au/news/" rel="nofollow">their home page</a> there's a link in the right column titled "Uhlmann: Wind outage a key factor behind SA blackout"<br /><br />Naturally this gives the impression that the Coalition and Uhlmann were right to blame renewables for the recent blackout. However, the actual report from the AEMO <i>does not blame renewables at all</i>.<br /><br />When you follow the link from the home page to the article, you're confronted with a different title:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-10-19/wind-power-loss-key-event-in-sa-blackout-report-finds/7947478" rel="nofollow">South Australia's storm caused transmission faults, but that's not the whole story</a><br /><br />The article starts with this:<br /><br /><blockquote><p>The Australian Energy Market Operator (AEMO) has found 
that the sudden and unexpected loss of half of South Australia's wind 
power in the midst of the severe storm on September 28 was a key event 
in the state-wide blackout.</p><p><a href="https://www.aemo.com.au/Media-Centre/-/media/9027D5FB69294D408E4089249F38A36D.ashx" rel="nofollow">The operator's update on the outage</a> shows it expected all generators should have been able to ride through the transmission faults caused by the storm.</p><p>"Nine
 wind farms exhibited unexpected power reduction during the six voltage 
disturbances on the transmission system," AMEO's report said. </p></blockquote><br />Now that's true, but putting it first, and after linking via a misleading title on the home page, is an obvious attempt to spin it as much as they can to sink renewables. It's basically indefensible and irresponsible reporting, of the abysmal quality you'd expect from a Murdoch rag.<br /><br />It fails to mention that the failure of some (not all wind farms) was due to a software setting that took them offline after a couple of bad blips in the network. Other wind farms, with different software settings, were fine. IOW, the problem had nothing to do with wind power as such. It was purely down to a maunfacturer's software setting that didn't allow the farm to rise out a sequence of network voltage drops. <a href="http://reneweconomy.com.au/2016/blackout-report-blows-away-big-myths-about-role-of-wind-energy-87194" rel="nofollow">From the AEMO report</a>:<br /><br /><blockquote><p>The size of voltage dips observed by SA wind turbines online at the 
time of the event was sufficient for ten of the thirteen wind farms 
online to activate their fault ride-through mode. Depending on the wind 
farm, this mode of turbine operation was activated between three and six
 times, as shown in Table 4.</p>
<p>Of the 13 wind farms on line prior to the event, four remained in 
service: Canunda, Lake Bonney 1, Lake Bonney 2 &amp; 3, and Waterloo. Of
 these, only one (Waterloo) initiated ride-through mode multiple times, 
but it remained in service because it was set to a limit of more than 
six ride-through events.</p></blockquote><br />So the software settings are easily changed, thereby solving the problem. The ABC article fails to mention this. The ABC article also fails to mention several other important aspects of the report. <a href="http://reneweconomy.com.au/2016/storm-of-controversy-erupts-over-aemo-blackout-report-41690" rel="nofollow">For example</a>:<br /><br /><blockquote><p>But the report also points to two other major problems.</p>
<p>The first is that fossil fuels are not a panacea as some would wish. 
The diesel and gas generators paid handsomely to provide black start 
services to the state both failed, one within 15 seconds, causing the 
blackout to last much longer than it would have done otherwise. AEMO 
refuses to name the failed generators, citing “confidentiality” 
agreements.</p>
<p>The three diesel generators that should have provided power to Port 
Lincoln also failed – two tripped almost immediately and the third had 
to be shut down.</p>
<p>And, as the report also notes, this is not the first time that the 
Heywood interconnector has been separated from the state. Three of the 
previous disconnections occurred when the main coal generator, the now 
closed Northern brown coal power station, tripped and caused the system 
to collapse. The other occurred when bushfires in Victoria caused 
multiple transmission line failures.</p></blockquote><br />This is worth reading to get a fuller picture: <a title="Link: http://reneweconomy.com.au/2016/storm-of-controversy-erupts-over-aemo-blackout-report-41690" href="http://reneweconomy.com.au/2016/storm-of-controversy-erupts-over-aemo-blackout-report-41690" rel="nofollow">Storm of controversy erupts over AEMO blackout report</a><br /><br />]]>
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        <title>Important climate milestones</title>
        <link>http://www.hotwhopper.com/chat/discussion/143/important-climate-milestones</link>
        <pubDate>Mon, 17 Oct 2016 04:44:28 +0000</pubDate>
        <category>Politics and Society</category>
        <dc:creator>Sou</dc:creator>
        <guid isPermaLink="false">143@/chat/discussions</guid>
        <description><![CDATA[Another short <a rel="nofollow" href="http://blog.hotwhopper.com/2016/10/important-climate-milestones.html">blog article</a> which fits in this category, I think. Here's a list of some recent climate-relevant achievements:<br /><div><ul><li><a rel="nofollow" href="http://unfccc.int/paris_agreement/items/9485.php">The ParisAgreement</a>&nbsp;-&nbsp;On 5 October 2016, the threshold for entry into force of the Paris Agreement was achieved. The Paris Agreement will enter into force on 4 November 2016.&nbsp;</li><li><a rel="nofollow" href="https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/oct/15/climate-change-environmentalists-hail-deal-to-limit-use-of-hydrofluorocarbons">HFC phase down</a>&nbsp;- There is a global agreement to phase down hydrofluorocarbons (HFCs) which will have a big impact on the rate of warming this century.</li><li><a rel="nofollow" href="https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2016/10/14/the-world-is-about-to-get-tough-on-aviation-emissions-heres-what-you-need-to-know/">Reducing aviation emissions</a>&nbsp;-&nbsp;The International Civil Aviation Authority (ICAO) CORSIA resolution — Carbon Offset and Reduction Scheme for International Aviation — will cap aviation emissions at 2020 levels by 2027.</li><li><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/bp-dumps-plans-to-drill-for-oil-in-the-great-australian-bight-20161011-grzjzv.html">BP won't explore the Great Australian Bight</a>&nbsp;- Under the previous Labor Government, then Minister Martin Ferguson did a deal with BP to explore the pristine Great Australian Bight. BP has now said it won't be doing that, for cost reasons.</li><li><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.climatecentral.org/news/world-passes-400-ppm-threshold-permanently-20738">Never again below 400 ppm</a>&nbsp;- with the latest CO2 levels in the atmosphere at the lowest time of the year, it's clear that never again for a very long time will the atmosphere have less than 400 ppm CO2.</li></ul></div>]]>
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        <title>BP won't drill the Great Australian Bight (for now)</title>
        <link>http://www.hotwhopper.com/chat/discussion/138/bp-wont-drill-the-great-australian-bight-for-now</link>
        <pubDate>Tue, 11 Oct 2016 02:49:03 +0000</pubDate>
        <category>Politics and Society</category>
        <dc:creator>Sou</dc:creator>
        <guid isPermaLink="false">138@/chat/discussions</guid>
        <description><![CDATA[Good news <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-10-11/bp-withdraw-from-great-australian-bight-drilling/7921956">from the ABC</a><br /><br /><blockquote>BP has announced it will not progress with plans for exploration drilling in the Great Australian Bight, offshore South Australia.<br />In a statement, BP said it had determined the project would not be able to compete for capital investment with other upstream opportunities in its global portfolio in the foreseeable future.<br />The company said it would instead focus on projects it can exploit in the short-to-medium term.</blockquote><p>It was the then Labor Minister, Martin Ferguson, who brokered the deal with BP, while the rest of the Labor Government was bringing in a carbon pricing scheme. A very shameful episode that should never have happened.</p><p>The Great Australian Bight needs to be protected against drilling permanently - I don't know who will do that.</p>]]>
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        <title>West Australians lost power due to lack of renewables!</title>
        <link>http://www.hotwhopper.com/chat/discussion/128/west-australians-lost-power-due-to-lack-of-renewables</link>
        <pubDate>Sat, 01 Oct 2016 07:43:50 +0000</pubDate>
        <category>Politics and Society</category>
        <dc:creator>Contrail Chook</dc:creator>
        <guid isPermaLink="false">128@/chat/discussions</guid>
        <description><![CDATA[<a title="Link: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-10-01/wa-storm-cuts-power-to-homes-in-perth-and-south-west/7895006" href="http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-10-01/wa-storm-cuts-power-to-homes-in-perth-and-south-west/7895006" rel="nofollow">WA storm blacks out homes, blocks roads as severe weather warning remains</a><br /><br /><blockquote><p>About 13,000 properties remain without power in Perth 
and Western Australia's south-west after damaging winds brought down 
trees and debris, with a severe weather warning still in place for a 
large part of the state.</p><p>Western Power said crews had managed to restore electricity supplies to 9,000 customers who were blacked out in the storm.</p><p>However
 approximately 10,000 properties are still without power in the 
south-west of the state, mainly in Collie, Donnybrook, Albany and 
Denmark.</p><p>More than 3,000 properties in Perth also remain blacked 
out, with Nollamara among the worst-affected suburbs and Balcatta having
 been hit earlier.</p></blockquote><p><br /></p>Ok, so obviously (obviously) this must be due to the fact that Western Australia relies on fossil fuels to generate its power. WA's fossil fuel targets are reckless and irresponsible. The priority is to maintain to notch energy security. WA needs to get on board with realistic renewables targets to prevent a recurrence of this disaster.<br /><br /> <img src="http://www.hotwhopper.com/chat/plugins/EmojiExtender/emoji/little/tongue.png" title=":p" alt=":p" srcset="/chat/plugins/EmojiExtender/emoji/little/tongue@2x.png 2x" /> <br />]]>
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        <title>New Oil Change International report: The Sky's Limit</title>
        <link>http://www.hotwhopper.com/chat/discussion/116/new-oil-change-international-report-the-skys-limit</link>
        <pubDate>Thu, 22 Sep 2016 07:58:53 +0000</pubDate>
        <category>Politics and Society</category>
        <dc:creator>Contrail Chook</dc:creator>
        <guid isPermaLink="false">116@/chat/discussions</guid>
        <description><![CDATA[<a href="http://priceofoil.org/2016/09/22/the-skys-limit-report/" rel="nofollow">http://priceofoil.org/2016/09/22/the-skys-limit-report/</a><br /><br />The short version:<br /><br /><blockquote><p><strong>Key Findings:</strong></p>
<ul><li>The potential carbon emissions from the oil, gas, and coal in the 
world’s currently operating fields and mines would take us beyond 2°C of
 warming.</li><li>The reserves in currently operating oil and gas fields alone, even with no coal, would take the world beyond 1.5°C.</li></ul>
<p><strong>Key Recommendations:</strong></p>
<ul><li>No new fossil fuel extraction or transportation infrastructure 
should be built, and governments should grant no new permits for them.</li><li>Some fields and mines – primarily in rich countries – should be 
closed before fully exploiting their resources, and financial support 
should be provided for non-carbon development in poorer countries.</li></ul></blockquote><p>The key recommendations are perfectly logical, if anyone who signed up to the Paris deal actually meant what they said. There's no weasel room left.</p><p>Any politician who claims to take the Paris accord seriously has to admit that no further development of fossil fuel reserves is permissible.</p><p>Done deal. End of.<br /></p><br />]]>
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        <title>375 top scientists warn of 'real, serious, immediate' climate threat</title>
        <link>http://www.hotwhopper.com/chat/discussion/115/375-top-scientists-warn-of-real-serious-immediate-climate-threat</link>
        <pubDate>Wed, 21 Sep 2016 18:58:33 +0000</pubDate>
        <category>Politics and Society</category>
        <dc:creator>Sou</dc:creator>
        <guid isPermaLink="false">115@/chat/discussions</guid>
        <description><![CDATA[John Abraham has <a rel="nofollow" href="https://www.theguardian.com/environment/climate-consensus-97-per-cent/2016/sep/21/375-top-scientists-warn-of-real-serious-immediate-climate-threat?CMP=share_btn_tw" title="Link: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/climate-consensus-97-per-cent/2016/sep/21/375-top-scientists-warn-of-real-serious-immediate-climate-threat?CMP=share_btn_tw">an article</a> at The Guardian about a letter from 375 scientists urging more immediate and stronger action to mitigate climate change.<br /><br /><br />]]>
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        <title>Burt Rutan is on Reddit doing a Ask Me Anythimg</title>
        <link>http://www.hotwhopper.com/chat/discussion/112/burt-rutan-is-on-reddit-doing-a-ask-me-anythimg</link>
        <pubDate>Wed, 21 Sep 2016 00:06:59 +0000</pubDate>
        <category>Politics and Society</category>
        <dc:creator>Trent1543</dc:creator>
        <guid isPermaLink="false">112@/chat/discussions</guid>
        <description><![CDATA[As some of you may recall Burt Rutan is not a famous aerospace engineer, but also a climate science denier and pyramid truther. He is on r/science right now answering questions. <a rel="nofollow" href="https://www.reddit.com/user/Burt_Rutan">Link</a>]]>
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